tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post4248623958489279313..comments2024-03-17T09:15:16.095+00:00Comments on The Ranty Highwayman: The Myth Of Shared SpaceThe Ranty Highwaymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17361350433158148025noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-307253622288432662016-02-09T18:15:58.687+00:002016-02-09T18:15:58.687+00:00Would you think that being financially compensated...Would you think that being financially compensated in the event of a crash makes you want to go and cycle with a truck? It would be like a parent thinking that if a similar law was enacted for babysitters it would be fine to let them stay with a paedophile just because they would be financially compensated in the event of a bad outcome. Look up David Hembrow's blog and my own blog's posts on strict liability for the explanation of why it doesn't affect driver behavior and Mark Wagenbuur(BicycleDutch)'s blog for an explanation of how the laws work in practice in the Netherlands.Multiparty Democracy Todayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13359081992141220593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-40043023938966267732016-02-09T16:00:35.572+00:002016-02-09T16:00:35.572+00:00Is the fact of driver liability a factor in the Ne...Is the fact of driver liability a factor in the Netherlands, which allows schemes to work there that wouldn't work in UK?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-9647241505781102842016-02-08T23:08:19.361+00:002016-02-08T23:08:19.361+00:00For anyone who wants to tell Westminster that Exhi...For anyone who wants to tell Westminster that Exhibition Rd should be filtered: https://www.westminster.gov.uk/quietway-route-hyde-park-south-kensington (i believe this now ends on 26th jan)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-45675029963388547962016-02-08T16:55:49.983+00:002016-02-08T16:55:49.983+00:00Indeed - I think people cycling would be a fair co...Indeed - I think people cycling would be a fair correlation of success of a so-called SS scheme. Poynton seems to be creeping in terms of traffic flow, although the town is meant to be getting a bypass...The Ranty Highwaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17361350433158148025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-24273791323865781182016-02-07T20:07:02.573+00:002016-02-07T20:07:02.573+00:00There is the study of Poynton by Melia (http://epr...There is the study of Poynton by Melia (http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/), which suggests that peds weren't 'taking the road' as the designers might have hoped (or as the name suggests they could), amongst other findings. <br /><br />NB. It should be noted that Dr. Melia has been accused of being biased against these schemes - by Mr. Cassini, IIRC, that noted fence-sitter when it comes to traffic control (see last weeks blog re traffic light removal).<br /><br />Andy R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-71495867989621782242016-02-07T16:13:42.966+00:002016-02-07T16:13:42.966+00:00I agree that you cannot measure how dangerous a ro...I agree that you cannot measure how dangerous a road is simply by the number of casualties -very few pedestrians get killed on motorways, but we know that is not because they are safe places to walk. <br />But, in the case of shared space schemes, I think it would be very useful to properly study the numbers of the different types of road user (car, bike pedestrian, HGV etc) and the number and severity of collisions both after and, as far as possible, before the change. This data should be but does not seem to be readily available and there are instances of people who have quoted incomplete collision data from Poynton.<br />In the case of cyclists, it is important to know the numbers who are opting to cycle to understand the actual level of risk. The change in the number cycling may also be fairly closely correlated with the change in the 'experienced' safety.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-27607525887572316462016-02-07T08:36:18.730+00:002016-02-07T08:36:18.730+00:00Casualty rates have to be taken seriously of cours...Casualty rates have to be taken seriously of course, but used very carefully; we never seem to measure "experienced" safety and the problem with the "befores" and "afters" of these schemes is we are simply not comparing like with like - the new layouts are totally different and we cannot simply say they are "safer"; they may have less recorded casualties, but that is as far as it goes.The Ranty Highwaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17361350433158148025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-53892604598560283772016-02-07T08:33:58.735+00:002016-02-07T08:33:58.735+00:00This space at least has a couple of zebras and non...This space at least has a couple of zebras and none of the "implied" roundabouts we seem to like that people soon use as roundabouts. Pretty aful - he said 12,000 on the main road 5,500 on the side roads a day - yuck!The Ranty Highwaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17361350433158148025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-84167975126809821912016-02-07T08:30:27.955+00:002016-02-07T08:30:27.955+00:00On the volumes, we also need to think about peak t...On the volumes, we also need to think about peak times as well. Overall daily flows can be relatively low, but concentrated into a small window. The Ranty Highwaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17361350433158148025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-37027951946236333522016-02-06T19:26:53.761+00:002016-02-06T19:26:53.761+00:00This is how it seems to me:
To work, shared space ...This is how it seems to me:<br />To work, shared space needs lower speeds, but getting drivers to go slowly is hard. Traffic calming has its drawbacks and limitations, so to really do the trick, shared space deliberately adds some ‘uncertainty’ to the mix.<br />Good?<br />On the whole, if you are in a car, the answer seems to be yes. You slow down because you know that someone could come at you from any direction; and you know you have to be ready to deal with multiple hazards at once. This may be worrying or annoying but, you can cope; after all, you are a driver: you have passed a test and have good eyesight and good reactions. Anyway, if it all goes wrong, your steel cage will protect you.<br />No, not so good.<br />If you are a cyclist or pedestrian then, from a driver’s point of view, you are already less visible and less predictable. With the added ‘uncertainty’ of shared space, drivers are focussing extra hard on not hitting each other. You are smaller and slower so you don’t easily register as a hazard and may get overlooked so, for a given speed, drivers may well be more likely to hit you than on a conventional road. <br />Even if, like many experienced cyclists, you are generally quite skilled at avoiding being hit, in shared space there could be two drivers at once, coming from different and unpredictable directions and, you still have to watch out for the child who may be about to run out across the level surface. You are not protected by a steel cage. <br />Adult pedestrians can generally protect themselves by keeping to the ‘pavement’ areas, but the young, the old, the blind and the disabled can’t necessarily do that. Nor can cyclists –they are required to mix with the cars.<br />The paradox of shared-space is that it may reduce overall injury rates but do it by improving the safety of the drivers (who are actually posing the danger) while worsening the safety of the vulnerable -with the most vulnerable facing the greatest increase in danger.<br />Reducing the danger for the most vulnerable needs to be given higher priority in shared space design. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-88130730779068758412016-02-06T16:02:32.285+00:002016-02-06T16:02:32.285+00:00Drachten, a supposed model of shared space;
https:...Drachten, a supposed model of shared space;<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q47umjW7GfE<br /><br />Can't say it looks like a particularly 'low speed environment' (apparently B H-B and Martin Cassini's currently preferred term).<br /><br />I've said it before, but if shared space is truly to work it's got to appear to both a pedestrian and a driver like it's a fully pedestrianised area into which the driver has mistakenly intruded, so that car drivers feel uncomfortable and ease right back on speeds - never mind 20mph - that's still way too fast to be mixing with peds. Of course, this requires that ped flows massively exceed motor traffic flows, creating a 'mobbing' effect, and inducing that feeling of discomfort in the driver.<br /><br />Andy R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1828166865647185633.post-50228255384506133372016-02-06T05:35:04.309+00:002016-02-06T05:35:04.309+00:00Good points about the volume. Shared space fails w...Good points about the volume. Shared space fails when there aren't low speeds of motor vehicles, it fails when there are too many motor vehicles and it is likely to fail is the blind have no way to navigate. Here are the applications of this sort of design that the Dutch actually use well. Woonerven are not what most people think of, but they could be said to be shared spaces. Again, relying on extremely low volumes of traffic and the really, really low speed of remaining traffic. Not even a through route by bicycle. And the pedestrianized zones are also where this shared space is used. The lines and demarcation blurs, allowing pedestrians to take control. Again, with access for loading at some times of the day only being pretty much the only thing that motor vehicles do in these zones. And the traffic that remains will be traveling very slowly. <br /><br />I suggest talking about fietsstraten, or bicycle street, and how a British version could look. Remember, very low volumes of cars, no more than about 2000-2500 absolute maximum and there should be double the number of cyclists projected or actually using it, if not 4 times, the speeds must be kept low, 30 km/h in urban areas and 60 in rural areas, and the roadway must be designed as if it were for bicycles as the primary user, either looking like a slightly wider version of a Dutch bicycle path, possibly with a raised textured median to discourage overtaking, or a pair of cycle lanes that combined make up between half and 2/3 of the carriageway, with access only by motor traffic. Very few stops, few traffic lights, if any, priority over side streets, and smooth transitions. Also bus routes are not a good thing. It is often applied incorrectly outside of the Netherlands.Multiparty Democracy Todayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13359081992141220593noreply@blogger.com